The ServiceLegend Podcast – Episode #22 – Commercial Success is Reachable & Replicable! W/ Matt Kuyper



Well, happy Friday, everybody, and happy Veterans Day to all the veterans out there. Thank you so much for your service to this amazing country. I have a special treat for you guys today. I am super excited after reading his personal profile. I was just just completely impressed. And I’m going to I’m going to botch your last name. So if you could, how do you pronounce the last name?

I want to say my last name yet. That’s Cooper Kiper.

Hyper Kiper OC. I have Matt Kiper organizations.

As we’ve had. You’ve never had to say my last name.

I know. I always say Mr. K. No, but Matt Cooper, welcome to the show. I appreciate it.

So happy to be here. Yeah. You keep connecting in the digital world.

Absolutely, man. Looking forward to meeting you in person sometime. Well, give me me at the PCA.

We did? Yeah, we did. We were just underwhelmed.

Yeah, it was real brief. You know, we had a big show going on. Hopefully this next one, we’ll have more time to. I won’t be as I won’t be as responsible to build the booth myself.

Yeah. There you go.

I’m going to hire somebody this time. It was a big ten by 20, booth. So it was. It was. It was a challenge. For those that don’t know Matt. He’s got over 20 years of experience in the commercial sector, having spent time working with general contractors, large, nationwide subcontractors, and now owning Harper painting. He’s no he’s no stranger to all aspects of commercial construction, and he’s the current president of Commercial Division of the Commercial Division at Harper Painting in Nashville, Tennessee, and a partner in a variety of other development ventures. It’s incredible.


What’s that?

Sounds good when you say it.

Yeah, it sounds good when someone else says about you, right? Yeah. It brings those butterflies in. But we’re going to dive into all of that today, guys. I see a bunch of people here live. If you are alive, if you could. If you could drop in. Comments. Hashtag live or just the number one. If you don’t feel like typing, you just want to hit a button. Just drop in. And number one in the comments, let me know that you’re alive. You’re here live with us. And if you’re watching this on the replay sometime next week or in the in the months ahead, you could drop in hashtag replay. That way. My team and I know who’s here live who’s who’s on the replay gives us a good feedback. I appreciate that. Appreciate that, guys. Okay. So before we get started, I want to ask you, are you prepared to over deliver for this group today?

I’ll do my best.

Let’s do it. Okay. So I want to get started way before you were this cool, you know, because for me, I mean, you’re an absolute legend. And that’s why we started Service Legend in the name is for guys like you. And it wasn’t just like a successful painting company, like, financially, but it was like a really good husband and father and in the community, a really good leader, providing upward mobility for their team members. To me, that’s what a service legend or home service legend is. It’s not just some guy that has money or things like that. It’s it’s really somebody who takes it to the next level in all aspects of life. And I feel like you’re an amazing example of that. Could you walk us through like before the business started with painting, Could you walk us through like what you were doing before then, maybe the 5 to 10 years before that?

Yeah. So I kind of never really intended to get in the construction industry out of college. I had background in it and growing up working summer jobs, so I knew a little bit about it. And my senior year of college, I had this random opportunity through my who’s now my father in law made a connection with a small commercial developer slash contractor that kind of built and develop their own commercial projects and got got the opportunity to go in there and work there for four years until kind of that 0809 recession kind of killed things. And that was really the the springboard that got me interested in construction because I was able to do so much at such a young age, had a long leash, and got to learn kind of the hard way of a lot of things and. Mm hmm. But that’s really where where I got started. Then, unfortunately, as things were a little softer in the economy through there, went to I had to do some travel work for a large national roofing company, which was great experience. Again, just learning a different part of the industry, traveling again, a lot of freedom to to fail and to succeed. Yeah. And at that point, it was getting to be more of a, Hey, we’re having kids starting a family. I need to be home. Yeah. And actually had an opportunity through one of the painting contractors that I used in my previous job. They were looking for an estimate and a project manager. And I didn’t know anything about it, so I just said, Yeah, sounds cool. And that was my first exposure in the painting industry and and really where I learned.

The the ins and outs of the commercial industry from an estimating from a project management standpoint, product knowledge. We were back then, we were a little isolated from the industry, so I didn’t we were kind of narrow in what we did. And since then I’ve learned so much more. There’s there’s way better ways to run businesses, there’s way cooler people out there, people just dominating now in our industry that I’ve learned a ton, a ton from. Yeah, I think we can. We all know who some of those people are, but there’s there’s countless. Countless. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Again, quick just to finish the background story, my time there was was done. He had a two year non-compete, which I kind of wasn’t necessarily intending to start a painting company, but I thought about it, hashed it out and said, It’s not worth dealing with the non-compete. I’ll just go back and be a project manager again in a different industry and just commercial construction. And two or three years into that, people just kept calling me like, Hey, are you going to start a painting company? X Ex-employees said, Hey, if you ever start, I’ll come work for you. All the signs just started pointing to it, and I always had the intention of starting my own business. I just never knew what it was going to be. And the Lord really guided that path and it became very obvious and very clear that it was going to be a painting company. And yeah, that was six almost seven years ago. Wow.

It’s incredible what you’ve done in that short period of time, too. I mean, I think a lot of people look at a company that’s doing high, high seven figures or eight figures. And I think I think sometimes we just look at the highlight reel, right? I mean, it’s common and even more common in in what you guys have done here. And it’s funny, like I want to highlight for everyone listening, like, like it wasn’t chaos what you were going through, but like, it was kind of like, Hey, I’m doing this now. There’s this going on. Oh, I have kids now. Look at it. Pride for these kids. I want to be home now. There’s so much going on in the life of just people in general, but the life of somebody that wants more out of life, like an entrepreneur. And you had that bug, it seems like, and you wanted something more out of life. Could you speak on that just for a second? Like, what was that bug for you? Like, was it like I wanted more money, I wanted more freedom, like before you started the company because you had that bug. What was that bug like for you?

I think it comes from two places. One, it’s ingrained in my family on both sides. My father in law was a serial entrepreneur and then an entrepreneurship professor, great consultant, and then my dad was also an entrepreneur and business owner. So it was it was shown to me that it was possible. I never thought it was not possible. So that just opened the doors wide open.

It’s a big deal.

And then from the intrinsic side, I. I always wanted. I’m just a person that wants to do something more and bigger and better in a healthy way. And I felt like that was going to be the only way I could achieve those goals was not working for somebody else. It was having a green field in front of me that I could plow however I wanted to.

Yeah. I love the. I’m writing this down here. I love what you said. You never thought it wasn’t possible. And I think a lot of times when we’re new business owners, a lot of people in this group, in this Facebook group, and people that listen to this podcast is it’s grown. It’s exponentially it’s crazy. And I know a lot of people that are listening are doing probably between 500 to 1.5 a year. And a lot of them are in that 500 to 1000000. There’s a lot of guys that are doing seven figures and some figures, but I think a lot of times when we’re in that and that and that startup phase and that and that onramp phase, we can get really down on ourselves and think like, oh man, like, you know, payroll. I only have after payroll, I’m going to have ten grand left. What am I going to do? You know, I might as well just close up shop, you know, I mean, we’ve all gone through those things. And so it’s it’s encouraging for me to hear that, too. So that’s really, really cool. So if you guys are listening, it’s always possible. Whatever you guys are doing, I don’t care if you have a residential commercial. I don’t care if you’re scared for winter coming up. Anything is possible. And Matt is alluding to that. Let’s jump into like right leading up to starting the company. Like, what was that like? Was it like was it like, how did you guys find the cash to get started? Was it because the guys were calling you? Right? They were like, Hey, you should do this. If you do it, I’ll work for you. Talk about that a little bit. Like as you started the company and maybe like the first couple of years, kind of like, like what was that like for you, your family, your team, things like that?

Yeah. So this is a life hack right here? I started doing it on the side. Okay, So I was I was doing my project manager day job duties, and it’s a pretty flexible job for the company I work for. It’s not like they were required me to be in my chair in the office eight, 10 hours a day. You know, you’re going out, you’re checking on jobs. So you can you can answer phone calls, coordinate things. So I just started doing small residential work and just had a little two man crew that was really self sufficient again, guys that I had known from before. So it wasn’t I didn’t have to build that level of trust right off the bat. Mm hmm. And it was a lot of. Imperfect steps, but always in the right direction and going forward. So I took a lot of small fails to go forward, but nothing that was going to sink the company. But there was no risk because I still was getting paid my day job. Right. So Maggie, my wife, who owns the business with me, we had. Had this goal of once we hit X amount of dollars in the harp of painting bank account, then we were ready to go full time. And that was a comfortable number that we both realized like, hey, we can if all, if, if all goes to hell, we’re good for a year, whatever it was. Right. And it also happened to be around the time that our one of our was at Charlie, Sam, Charlie, one of our kids was born. I was doing an estimate like the day after in the.

In the business you were or in the, in the company you were working for.

No, Harp is painting. Okay, that’s cool. So, yeah, that was that was my way to succeed early on is basically de-risking it, which not everybody has that opportunity. But that’s how it worked for me.

Right? And yeah, that’s awesome. I think a lot of people are starting painting companies on the side, whether they’re working for a company. So that’s, that’s, that’s pretty cool. And I like that you had a number in mind. There’s always a number in mind. So I think I think what’s cool about that, that little story that you share right now is you had a plan in place and you and you and your wife had like a calculated plan, Hey, when we hit this X, we’re going to do X. And you guys were focused on that, it seemed like. So that’s really, really cool. So how long have you guys been in business now?

I think it’ll be seven years this spring. Wow. So six years? Call it six years.

Yeah. So pretty experienced. And then the revenue. Are you okay with sharing revenue or. No.

That’s fine. Yeah.

Okay. So you guys are going to do 7.5 million this year?

Yeah, that’s probably an old number because there’s some new contracts we got will be maybe just over eight, depending on. Gosh. Wow.

That’s a big jump, man.

Wow. Yeah, we. Yeah, we landed a big project in Dayton, Ohio, that has some big billing months ahead of us through the end of the year. So.

Yeah, yeah, I remember you talking about that a couple of weeks back. Very, very cool. So, guys, I’m going to stop and pause just for a second. If you’re listening to.


And you are a project manager, you work for somebody and you had an idea seven years later, you can make $8 million annually. Like it’s possible. You know, I took Kardinal from 0 to 1.5 million in 12 months our first year, and I’m going to speak on that on on Monday in Detroit. And some people are like, oh, that’s that’s fake news or that’s a scam. I’m like, because I was, you know, I’m 29 now. And I think if we started it two years ago. So I was I was I was 27. And so a lot of the guys in the industry a little bit older and not much older, but they are like almost think that it’s not true. And so when you hear stories like this, you know, we see the highlight reels and guys, it is totally true. It’s totally possible. And if you think that it’s not possible, then shame on you. Shame on you, because it is possible and it’s super exciting for me. It’s inspiring. Congratulations on that.

Your data point along with that too. And again, not a not a bragging point, but I generated almost a million in revenue when I was still doing it on the side the first year. Are you serious? Yeah. Wow. That’s incredible. Don’t let don’t let the head trash hold you back that you can’t do it and can’t do it quickly if you want to. Yeah.

When you tell Brad that. Right, Because Brad Slack and.

Brad Pitt’s slacking.

I’m not sure if Brad’s listening, but I’m going to see Brad. We’re supposed to hang out either Sunday night in Detroit. But I’m speaking on on on Monday. And then we’re going to a Pistons game. So Brad’s trying.

To figure out a way to get up there. I’m a little jealous.

I’m excited to see him. I’m not sure if my wife’s going to come now. We’ll see. Penelope has gymnastics on Monday afternoon, so debating on, like, should she miss it or not? So we’ll figure it out. But. Okay, so let’s walk through, like, how many, like, employees you guys have. I think I think that’s really important. Going to do 8 million plus in this year. Like how many people does that take? What’s the infrastructure like? What’s all the services and the markets like? If you just walk us through like the kind of the like the structure of how like all of this kind of works for you?

It’s a little complicated for us because we. We do high level residential work and we’re doing high level commercial work. So it’s a little bit of a complex business structure because of that. I don’t I don’t know many people that are doing this the way that we’re doing it, for better or worse, I don’t know. But Maggie, my wife again, who is our CEO, she runs everything residentially. We have a sales guy and a project manager fully committed over there. And then we have another person who is a sales and project manager combo. So I’d say there’s three people plus her over there. And then I if you don’t mind.

If you don’t mind, sorry to interrupt you, but on the residential side, like what’s the percentage difference in terms of revenue from resi to commercial?

It’s this year it’s going to be about 5050.

Wow. So that many people could.

Take that back and it’s going to sway it because of that project in Ohio. It’s going to be more 66.

That’s feel like not a lot of people putting that much revenue up, too. So shout out to Maggie for crushing.


Very cool.

And it’s interesting, we look at profit numbers on on multiple different kinds of jobs. And across all the services we offer, it’s pretty consistent. There’s not one that’s a dog and not one that’s crazy high. So we just keep doing it. I mean, a lot of services we offer and it can be a little complicated, but they’re all working, so we’re just routing it out. Thanks. Yep. Now I have a project manager that works with me on the commercial side, and I still do a little bit of the project management duties as well. So there’s really and then we have an admin, so there’s seven of us on the management team. We have one employee painter. And the rest are contractors. And that’s kind of been the secret to our success. And our growth has been able to recruit, retain really good subcontractors that make our management life a lot easier. We don’t have to have a lot of management power. To to babysit them. Yeah. That’s what’s. That’s what’s helped us.

Believe you don’t have a nursery.


I think a lot of companies have nurseries, You know.

Exactly whether that’s employees in there. Like contractors? Either one.

That’s cool, man. Seven people on the management team. That’s incredible. And then how many painters does that make up? Like all the all the subs there, is it.

It’s typically 60 ish. Wow. That can that can ebb and flow between winter and summer. Project load pretty consistent around 60. Yeah.

A lot of people.


Really really cool now out of out of Magine yourself like who’s like the visionary? Like, who’s like the one that’s like, here’s what we’re doing, here’s why we’re going to map it out. Like, is that you or her?

You know, we’ve had a lot of those conversations lately, and I would say more me than her. But we also have this strange, somewhat perfect relationship where we can kind of do it together. I don’t know that every couple or even every business owner team could do that. It’s it’s a unique way, I think that we can we can do that. So I wouldn’t say one or the other. It really does tend to be both.

Cool. That’s really, really cool. That’s probably what really kind of makes you guys who you are. It’s always fun seeing you guys together because you guys, you guys do have that like, dynamic duo. And maybe we’ll get Maggie on the podcast talking about the Rosie side more one day because she’s impressive as well. I mean, she’s.

Way more impressive than me. Sure.

It’s just incredible. 40% that many people that much revenue. I’m like, I’m blown away. So shout out to Maggie. Awesome job. So let’s let’s talk about your guys’s ideal customer and target market. Like how do you guys find those customers for commercial? And we can stay commercial. You can you can talk about residential if you want to. Matt But what you guys is I know customer target market, things like that.

So on the commercial side, we focus less on what type of project it is and more on who the client is. So we build, we work on building long term relationships with contractors and building owners. For example, one of our our contractors that we work with, we might do an industrial project for him one day and then we’re doing some wallpaper the next day. But we’re dealing with the same people we know and trust. We’re not putting our a box into what services we perform. It’s more about what customer we want to service. Wow. And that that is a little a little less true on the residential side. We do. Have a few new construction residential builders that we work with on the higher end market that are willing to pay what we what we deserve. Not all builders are willing to do that. I think most people know. Yeah, but again, that’s that goes back to the relationship side of it. And then our typical direct to homeowner customer is your. Your bread and butter. 50 year old couple or 60 year old couple kids out of the house or they’re just moving into town. Want to repaint as they’re coming in from California. We got all those people in Nashville doing that. Yeah. We have a unique I think we have a unique average job size compared to most repaint contractors. It’s it’s higher I believe it’s in the mid teens 15, 13, 16,000 average job size, something like that.

So on the residential side.

And the residential side, yeah, I think we’re industry average people would say probably 6000.

Yeah. I mean that’s like an average ticket.

Yeah. We’re like double that.

Wow, that’s incredible.

I think it’s because of the customer that we target or that target us. Really? Yeah.

That’s incredible. That’s like an HVAC average ticket. I know an HVAC owner out in California. I was at Vertical Track last month for Tommy’s event. And all those HVAC guys, they’re like 15 K, average ticket, 20 K, And I’m like. It’s like, holy moly, you guys, you know, these guys are doing like 20 million, 30 million, 40 million, 25% net. I’m like, What is going on in here?

So we’re in the wrong industry, aren’t we something?

Sometimes I’m like, Dang. Well, not for you though, with that average ticket. So you’re so you’re doing well.

Yeah. I’m like, Yeah.

Okay. So like, let’s talk about the commercial side for a second. How do you guys go about how do you guys go about like developing those relationships? You know, I was talking to you before we started the podcast. I was a commercial estimator before I got into the residential space and before I started Service Legend. And that’s where I learned so much about the technical side, about the products and all these different things. But like, you know, for me it was developing relationships with project managers at construction firms. And I was I was walking in cold, cold to offices to try and get on the bid list, trying to get in and rub elbows with people. How do you guys go about developing those relationships like early on and now? And like, how has that changed from when you guys started to now?

I think there’s two ways to answer that. One. For me, it’s the long, slow burn of being in Nashville, in the industry for almost 20 years now. There was young dudes that I was meeting that were coming into firms that are clients of mine now who are senior PMS or divisional managers. Our careers have kind of progressed together. But that came from being involved in industry events, doing, like you said, just going in and meeting people and in breakfast in the old fashioned way back in the day. And those dividends have paid off hugely over time. I don’t think that’s the way to get instant work. So that’s that’s the way that I’ve done it and will continue to do it. I think from the perspective of somebody new, especially if you’re new to commercial completely. Is just getting on the bed list is probably the step number one just to see what’s out there, what kind of projects they’re bidding. And this is I’m talking new construction right now. The commercial repaint runs more like a resi repaint as far as how you’re getting your leads and what you’re going after. Yeah, but once you start getting bombarded with all those invitations to bid, you start weeding out what kind of projects you like or who’s presenting these things well. And then just go find those people, go knock on their door, go talk to them, see if they’ve got some small thing you could start out on or. I won’t say this. I guess this is being recorded. So you’re allowed to underbid some things to get your foot in the door on some smaller projects if you’ve got good, strong cash flow. Because if you can convince them that you’re trustworthy and your go to guy but you didn’t make any money on the first job, you’ll be fine in the long run.

Yeah. You have to get in there somehow, right?

Yeah. You can’t keep doing that forever. But it is a it is a trick on some. Some smaller early on stuff that does work.

And like to add on to that. It’s so important to know your numbers when you’re first starting. I think a lot of us entrepreneurs in the home service space and just in general, but specifically home service painting, whether it’s commercial residential, usually what I see is the financial literacy is learned years after. Right. Which I get it. That was me too. For me, you know, when I met with my first home service coach before we talked about anything, because I want to talk about hiring and culture and leadership and all these things. And he goes, Before we get started writing, it’s nice to meet you. Give me your pal. And he’s like, We’re going to learn this before we talk about anything else. Because if we don’t learn this and you don’t understand your pal and your balance sheet and how your cash moves in your business, etc., you don’t know anything about your business.


And so in order to really jump in there, if you guys would know your numbers like through and through, and then you can know like, okay, I’m going to bid this project and I’m going to make 12% net gross profit or whatever it is, you know, the number. And if you’re going to identify that, then like what Matt saying, you can really jump in and secure a project and develop a relationship and not necessarily go negative, you know? So did you guys understand the numbers early on like that in order to make those decisions?

Yeah. So from two ways. One, the experience I had on both ends of the client side, both of buying painting contractors and being one, you see kind of what’s effective where numbers need to be. And then when we started, you know, you got to develop your own production rates and your own pricing system that works for your guys or what kind of company you are. But just knowing that you need one is step number one. You can figure it out. It’s not hard. You know, everybody on the Internet asks is how much does this cost? How do you price this? And when you’re looking at a project you’ve never looked at before, if you’re coming from residential to commercial, just break it down into the smallest pieces that you can think of. For example, it’s a school. You can figure out how long it’s going to take you to paint a classroom. Even even if you don’t have good production rate numbers, just sit there and think like, Hey. If I got to get out and paint this wall, three coats, whatever primer and two coats is going to take me X amount of time and then just take that number and extrapolate it on a much larger scale. It’s not hard if you start breaking it down into its smallest components. I think people just get overwhelmed. Um hum.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think it’s the biggest thing is you try to take on too much at once, figure out everything at once. And if you are listening, you’re not in the PCA. Nick Slovic The PCA, like Jason Parish, like they have so many resources and Nick has like resources for free. Like I emailed Nick and he was like, boom, here’s my job costing template. I’m like, like, so there’s no excuses here, but if you’re not aware, like the awareness thing is what’s huge is sometimes these guys are starting in, they’re not aware they should know these things or whatever. So hopefully this podcast brings some awareness at least, and there are so many resources out there and people that are willing to help. And I think when I was starting, I felt like embarrassed to ask for that help, like thinking like a guy, like you would be like, Oh, like this new guy. And it’s completely opposite. Yeah, there are so many people that want to serve and help and really see others succeed. So reach out. Join the PCA. Reach out to people like Matt or Nick or Jason or myself, and we’re more than happy to help and it’s something that we’re passionate about. So what type of USPA do you guys have? Like unique selling propositions on the commercial side or the Razzi side? Like how do you guys position yourselves in the eyes of your customers?

So on the commercial side, there’s two things. One, it’s the long term relationships that we’ve built, so it’s trust. And then also we just do. We’re capable of doing really weird shit when it’s not just painting a bunch of drywall walls and door frames. They’re going to call us because we can figure out the weird coding system or the unique access thing or the complex wall panel system, whatever it may be, if it’s outside the box. I think that’s one of our core values is continuous improvement. Even if we haven’t done something before, we’ll go do R&D in the shop and we’ll spend our own time and money playing around with products or systems or whatever it may be to figure it out and then bid it and do it. So that’s I would say that’s probably number one and. That that also kind of makes us a little less competitive on your typical just in office buildout type project because we’re we’re not as set up to just be blow and go cheap guys we want something a little different and unique that requires a little more hands on leadership and management and and unique production systems from the crews to Wow.

It’s incredible, actually, that you’ve you’ve diagnosed that like that because obviously there’s there’s a market for both. But I imagine that the relationships that you’ve built and how you position yourself in that relationship to those people, they know that about you guys and they can trust that within you guys. Yeah.

I actually have good clients in mine that will say, Hey, I know this job isn’t right for you. I don’t want you to feel bad that you’re not going to get it. And I was like, That’s fine. You’re right. It’s not the right job for us. He’s like, But we got this one coming up that is going to be for you, so just sit tight.

Wow. Now, that’s a relationship right there. That’s cool. So, you know, like, what are those perfect jobs? So like, like those those weird things. If you could, like, elaborate on that, Like, the weird things. What are those things to you guys?

Perfect example. Let me see here. I got to show off my jewelry.

He’s breaking out the diamond, Cuban chains, Everybody know. Oh, wow.

This is an award we won last week, actually. Wow. For a dog food processing plant here in outside of Nashville. And we worked with our Sherwin-Williams Industrial, actually, the the flooring rep to come up with a system. That was super smooth on these CMU walls because it was a sanitary food processing system. Mm hmm. The architect spec was garbage. The other plaster guys tried to come up with something that didn’t work, and we were able to come up with a system that the owner loved and really didn’t care how much it cost. And now we’re doing it all over the country. Wow.

And so what’s that award right there? What does it.

Say on there? That is the ABC, which is the Association of Building Contractors, the trade organization. It’s their Excellence in Construction award for specialty construction under 10 million in the industrial sector.

Wow. Incredible.

Congratulations on that, man. Yeah. Was a big award. We’re very happy about it.

Yeah. Awards are nice, right? They like they you know, we don’t want to boast on them, but it is nice to be recognized.

You know, it validates the team. We got three other little glass plaques to go with that trophy, and I gave those out to the guys, and they’re the ones that really make it happen. Yeah.

Yeah, us too. Like Marco and I, my business partner in service legend, we were in Miami this week. I literally just got back to Phoenix late last night, so I’m a little tired this morning, but we won Agency of the quarter, and then we won an award for landing multiple seven figures plus. And when I when I first got it, I was just like the first thing I thought about was our team. And I was like, man, like, I wish our team was here, you know? And so it was bittersweet. I’m like, This is cool. But I wanted our team to feel what I felt walking up and getting that award because it’s the team that really produces it. I mean, you know, it it is us, right? Leading the team and doing our thing and what we do. But the team is where it’s at, you know? And so I like that you said that, too. So do you guys do any marketing for commercial? I mean, I know you guys do a lot of marketing on the residential side, but if you could speak to like the marketing side on the commercial side, if you guys do anything there, whether it’s emails back to these relationships or like just anything there. And then also if you know anything about the marketing on the residential side as well.

On the commercial side, there’s really not any paid marketing that we do. It’s old school boots on the ground kind of stuff. We do quarterly email things that go out, just kind of hear some what’s happening and stay in front of mind. But most of it’s taken some guys out shooting or fishing or hunting or lunch or. That still works. Yeah. So, yeah, on the residential side, I don’t know as much about it other than that we’re doing some Google SEO, Google ads and then shout out to Pathfinder working in Pathfinder. Your competitor, I guess.

No, Eric’s the man. You know, there’s there’s so many painting contractors. I think. I think competition is good. This is what America is all about. And and and Eric’s Eric’s amazing man. The guys are.

Solid. It’s I think we’re about six months in with that. And it’s been very effective in our market. It’s you know, I was worried that it wasn’t going to hit our target market, but it has been, and I think we’ll keep chugging along. That’s really our only two avenues right now.

So on the on the commercial side, it’s mainly relationships and the cash that you might spend there is, you know, shooting restaurants, take people out, etc., quarterly emails. And then on the residential side, you said Google ads, SEO, and then I think so Pathfinder does Facebook ads.

It’s Facebook and Instagram.

Yeah, yeah. And they do it really, really well. So you’re really hitting all the main things really on the revenue side, you want to get found online, which is Google Ads, SEO, and then you want to hit people directly, which is Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, YouTube ads, those types of things. So you’re really covering all the bases there on the residential.

Thing where we’re questioning and looking into doing some EDM or some mailers as well, since we haven’t tried that just to get a data point and see, see what it can produce because I think if there is. You know any I don’t want to use the the recession word, but if that is happening or could happen, we want to know what works and what doesn’t. And since we haven’t tried that yet, I think that’s something in the spring that we’re going to try to or maybe this winter. Yeah, implement.

Yeah. If you guys do, there’s a there’s a guy called David Carroll. He owns a company called Dope Marketing. Like dope. And they do automated direct mail. And he’s. He’s in all of home services, but he’s what he’s built. It’s like a platform. And you log in and it’s just insane. He can automate, like, thank you cards. It’s just like it’s incredible what he’s doing. So check out him. Let him know Ryan sent you over there and see if they can help you out. But I love the marketing mix here.

You reminded me of one other thing, too, because so much of our work is referral based. We we work with a company called Thanx, which I think is PH and K. S takes the vowel out. And they’re actually based out of Nashville, I believe. But it’s like a really cool, kind of like an e commerce platform where you can go in and select a card and a gift. And they send it out like it looks like it’s coming from us. So obviously, with an average job size of 13, $15,000, you can send out pretty nice referral gifts when you get a referral.

Now, that’s game changer. So is that is that something you guys do after the project is completed to a customer?

I don’t know. It’s a good question.

Well, I saw Maggie just comment. So maybe Maggie probably knows.

Yeah. Tell us.

Hey, Maggie, if you’re listening. I was telling Matt earlier, we’d love to get you on the podcast as well, talking about the Rosie side and hearing your side of the story as well.

She’s out in Palm Springs playing tennis, so she might. Oh, wow.

She’s having a blast than I imagine. The weather’s probably perfect out there right now.

So I think it’s cold. Yeah.

Yeah. I grew up in Southern California, so she said my side is better.

That’s hilarious. Love it.

So move it on to the marketing side a little bit deeper. Like what is working best for you guys? Like, is it the Facebook ads with Pathfinder? Is it is it the SEO? I’m not sure if you’re if you’re tuned into that too much, but do you know what’s working best?

I don’t know if I would say what’s working best, I think. The quickest, most effective leads have been Pathfinder. Facebook leads. Yeah. Behind. Still just our referral through our network. Yeah, our.

Facebook stuff is so awesome guys like. And what’s funny though is if we could talk about Facebook ads for a second is Facebook ads like the most important thing is because I feel like Facebook ads is a commodity, like most people can learn how to run Facebook ads, you know? There are so many courses out there now. Everyone can paint. But can you paint? Well, it’s the same concept. Everyone can run Facebook ads, but can you do it well, But I feel like the most important thing about Facebook ads is what happens after the leads come in and how we convert those leads next. Or, you know, that process pipeline management because it is a on my phone, on me. You know, you might have a a nurse that gets home from work and is going to this at home. Oh, Harper painting. Oh there’s this offer and they and they opt in right. Like that’s what happens. And they’re like, hey honey, like there’s this company 50% off. Should I say my information? Yeah. Yeah, I guess. What happened? So, like, what do you guys do after the leads come in? That makes it work really well for you guys.

It’s in your world. I think we’re competing the cardinal sin of home services that we don’t actually answer our phone. Oh. And I know that rubs a lot of people the wrong way, but that’s that’s the way we’re going to build our business and continue to build it. Yeah. But we do use drip jobs so that everybody gets.


Fairly immediate response that we’re going to get back to them and schedule an appointment so that that is like we’re hitting we’re touching them as soon as we possibly can.

Yeah. And when drip drop is when the lead comes in, they’re getting hit automatically.

Oh, so.

Even if.

You are, the problem is, sometimes since we do get so many referral where it’d be somebody that I know, somebody that knows somebody and they give them my personal cell phone number and they text me. Yeah. So with those I just respond say, Hey, one of my team members will be reaching out to you. You can go to this link if you don’t want to wait. So there is some extra steps sometimes. But yeah, it really doesn’t matter. With those strong referrals. They’re going to go, They’ll wait for whatever. Yeah, it’s the people that don’t know us that need to be hit right away.

Yeah. So when you say you don’t, you don’t. You don’t answer the phone. Like, what does that mean? Like when you say that, What does that mean?

Literally, don’t answer the phone. We have a Google voice number that says. If you want to request a bid, go to this link or email this person. You can leave a voicemail. But we don’t have any live phone answering.

Now in that and that and that.

The project starts or the touch is made.

Yeah, but that recording, they go to that link. So like, is there a lot of people going to that link? You can see that happening or.


Yeah, yeah. So who cares, right? I mean, you guys are, you guys are making it work and hey, you’re going to do 8 million this year, you know, So there’s, there’s a lot of ways to skin the cat, obviously. I think a lot of people get lost in that, too, even on the marketing side. And that’s why I think Pathfinder’s so cool. We’re doing so cool. There’s so many other people that are like, This industry is huge. I just was at a conference and in the coding space, our competitor, but he’s like one of my best friends and his name’s Danny Barrera. He runs concrete marketing crew. And when my best friends and we talk about everything, we talk about what’s working, what’s not working, and, and, and, and we serve each other. We help each other and maybe don’t say, like, we don’t share every single secret. Maybe. But we shared a lot this week, you know? And, you know, I would challenge anyone that’s listening that is a painting contractor or concrete coding, power washing, whoever’s in this in this group. And you think that your competitors, if they win, you lose. That’s what Tommy, my mentor, you know, when my my mentors told me, he goes, Look, if I win, that doesn’t mean that you lose. So if Pathfinder wins, I don’t lose. If I win, Eric doesn’t lose. And I think a lot of times we forget that in home services that when when I see harpists doing well and I’m like, Oh my gosh, it’s like, dude, I think we have to develop an abundance mindset. And so that’s a really, really important. Now, have you thought about using like a like a, like an answering service to like, to facilitate that for you guys?

We have just don’t know. That the I think our lead flow would need to be a lot higher to justify it. As far as those true cold leads coming in. Mm hmm. Yeah. And we just don’t have a really high volume of cold leads.


But I could see that coming as we grow. Yeah.

Well, if you guys ever look into it, there’s a company called Jill’s Office.

Yeah, I’ve heard of that one.

Yeah, I use them for Cardinal after hours. Well, I have a gym, and then there’s an office manager that they handle the phones. But after hours, Jill Jo’s office answers, and then when they answer, they’re like, Hey. Yep, I’m a cardinal. I’m Heather with Cardinal, Whatever. And then if it’s a customer, they send it to this email. And if it’s a prospect, what they could do is they could be like, Hey, go to this link and they can and they can direct it for you. But obviously what you guys are doing is working.

So I do believe that we will probably outgrow what we’re doing. Yeah.

So. Is there any marketing efforts that you guys have have stopped using, like things that you guys have done in the past seven years that just didn’t go really well, whether it’s offline or online?

Yeah, we back in the day, we tried doing our own social media ads or posts or boosts and stuff like that. It was total waste of time and money didn’t generate, I think zero leads.

That’s always hard to to bite, right?

Yeah. It wasn’t like we spent a ton of money on it, but it was it was not effective at all.

Was that like was that you or Maggie that that was.

Back there was kind of doing it at that time? Yeah.

Interesting. Okay.

So anything else that is completely flopped, though, really, most things have kind of just worked to some extent. Yeah.

So would you recommend a smaller painting company that’s starting out maybe in the first couple of years? Like, would you say like, hey, like, hire a professional or like, what would your advice be to them in terms of like what you went through, in terms of like doing your own thing? It didn’t work. What would you like your advice be for someone like that?

I did not, but looking back. Well, I did not and probably didn’t need to, but I think in average, most people would be better off hiring a marketing guru quickly. And I think I think a prime example of that, again, is is Brad Ellis in Detroit. He he knows where to spend his time and it’s in front of the customers selling. It’s not working on a marketing plan or sending out leads or collecting leads and all that stuff. It will help you scale a whole lot quicker. You’re not going to make the mistakes because the marketer has hopefully already made those mistakes. Yeah. And it just gets rolled into the cost of the job. Mm hmm. You might have a little time. A float where you’re paying for the marketing services before everything hits, but just understand that you’re going to pay 120 $850 per lead or whatever it is in your area, and it’s just the cost of doing business. Mm hmm. Yeah. You’re not throwing money away. You’re spending money to get money.

Yeah. You’re investing, right? You’re managing your business. And that’s like. That’s why if you go back to knowing your numbers, if you know your numbers properly. Yes, you can. You can win projects early on. But you can also understand, like Cardinal’s marketing costs, last month was 7%. It was 7%. But we need more appointments because we brought on another sales person. And if we didn’t know what our cost per league, cost per appointment, what we could afford to spend for that new salesperson, I mean, we just be throwing freakin gum at the wall and hoping it sticks or something like that. So knowing your number is so important. What do you guys do to attract online reviews? Is there anything special that you guys do?

I think the the really the two things that we do are drip jobs has good automation for that. And then our usually the sales guy will follow up at the end of a project and just do a quick check in of, Hey, how’d everything go? Would you be willing to leave us review? The link is in the invoice that got sent out or whatever, and especially in the last three or four months, we’ve been that we’re getting two reviews a week right now.

Wow. It’s good.

So we weren’t really going after it until we started with drip jobs. We would get we would get them just by randomly asking, but there wasn’t like a systematic method. You know, we had little job cards with a QR code for the length that we would leave behind. But. You really even even with sending that stuff out, you’ve got to ask right in front of their face. Right.

Yeah, the automation doesn’t replace the manual efforts. It just it just supports it and helps it adds on to it.

And there’s other ways that. You can incentivize that. I think some companies do that really well. We don’t I haven’t found a need for it, but bonuses based on on reviews, I think could be really effective. But we’re just kind of, again, kind of the mix of work that we’re in. Having 200 reviews hasn’t really been a necessity for us yet. I think we’re up to maybe 50 or 60, something like that. Yeah, yeah.

Google has come out and said that one of the top five ranking factors for the Google business profile, it used to be called Google my business. It’s called Google Business Profile. Now top five ranking factors is reviews. And it’s not just reviews in general, but it’s the consistency. So like in the past four months getting two reviews every week, I can imagine that if you’re optimizing that profile properly and doing the SEO properly, that you’re probably in that three pack for when they type in commercial painting near me or commercial painting Nashville or exterior painting Nashville, you should come up organically. But also in that in that three pack because over 45% of all clicks on page one of Google are in that in that three pack there. And so the reviews are huge, you guys. And it’s not just any review, it’s the consistency, its customers, the depth of the of the review itself versus just stars or if they’re like really like meaningful.

To get pictures to.


Have them post pictures.

Yeah. So that’s really, really cool. So I imagine you guys are going to get some more phone calls from that and get your like your rankings increase and Google will start to recognize you guys more and more and more.

We will change is something again.

Yeah. Which is probably tomorrow you know they just actually announced that there’s a change in the analytics in January and like holy moly can you guys slow down here? Like we just learned the last algorithm update. So it was just like a couple months ago or something like that. So Facebook, well, you know, Google is better at the algorithm updates because they actually let us know most of the time Facebook would just.

Just change it.

Yeah, to change it. They don’t even tell you Facebook tell you. So at least Google will notify you, which is nice, you know, gives you a heads up. And what’s funny about Google is when they update you, there’s already a course out from a guru on on how to solve for it. I’m like, dude it just came out in two days ago so. How are you guys using social media on the organic side? Obviously, you guys are running ads and that’s going well for you guys. Are you guys doing anything special on the organic side that is helping your business and kind of growing the reputation there?

I wouldn’t say it’s special, but we we use it as more of like a. Photo carousel. For our projects, we’re posting maybe not daily, but pretty frequently, both in post stories and reels of just completed projects or the guys work in or like this award thing. Just general kind of what we’re up to. Not a lot of talking to the camera stuff. Yeah. It’s more more of a kind of just what we’re up to.

If you were on camera, like, I saw a picture of you the other day wearing, like, some short shorts there. And I’m telling you right now, if you would get on camera and shoot like, some short form content, you guys would go into the tens of thousands of followers. You could do it. I’ll tell you right now.

You could do it, man. Yeah. Stand by. 2023 is coming.

It’d be like mad out there with a roller Payton with those shorts. Dude, that would.

Blow up a Ticktock, man. Isn’t that more of, like, an onlyfans thing?

That’s a different podcast.

It’s their.



Oh, that’s hilarious. I see you guys are social media and it looks super authentic. That’s what’s really cool.

That’s exactly what we’re going for. And I’m glad you use that word because we’re very intentional about it being authentic.

Yeah, I could tell right away.

There’s there’s four or five of us that are posting. It’s not one person.

Oh, wow. Wow. That’s even crazier because sometimes when there’s that many people, it can get mixed messages. Wow. Incredible. It’s very professional, too. So like if you guys are looking for those higher end projects, it really matches that, you know. I think a lot of a lot of lessons to be learned if you guys are listening is if you guys are looking for those higher end projects, make sure that your branding, your messaging, your social media kind of presence matches that you know. I think a lot of times sometimes when I look at a social media page or their reputation and they’re like, Yeah, I want the high end projects, I’m like, Well, it’s like apples and oranges here, you know? So that’s really, really cool that you guys did that intentionally.

Also, another intentional thing that we do is we post a lot less commercial work because that’s people in the commercial industry are not concerned with Instagram or what a project looks like residential customers are. Yeah, so 90% of what’s on Instagram is residential stuff.

Yeah. I was talking to a painting contractor recently and they were like, Why do I need social media posting? Because it’s one it’s in our Mastery program that we do that daily. And he’s like, Why do I need that? I don’t want that. I’m like, Well, if we’re going to run ads on your page, I feel like the ads are going to like the cost per lead is going to go down when A because a consumer is going to see that ad, even if they opt in, they will usually go back to the page. And if there’s like post there and they can see your works here, team, you know, they can get to know you on a personal level. They’re going to have a better experience in terms of being price conditioned. They’re going to have better expectations and probably you’re going to experience a higher closing rate, too, when they when they see that stuff.

So, yeah, I agree.

Yeah. Are you guys doing anything specific to market to existing or like unsold estimates, like on the residential side, Are you guys sending like reactivation campaigns to like people that don’t answer or like estimates that don’t close right away? Are you guys doing anything to follow up with those with those leads and unsold estimates.

We did in the past as we were growing? But I’ll be honest, over the last two or three years, I haven’t wanted to reactivate anybody. We’ve been too busy. But but previously kind of more in the the gritty growth stage. I did it the old fashioned way of, oh, this person, I’m going to send them an email, like a personal email to maybe 30 people a day or whatever. Boy, you can drum up some work quick.

You can, huh?


Yeah. Yeah. It’s pretty incredible. That’s one of the first things we do when we we onboard a new client is we’ll reactivate their cold email or their cold leads, their unsold estimates, and try to get more reviews from their customers. You can just send a blast up to the customers that haven’t haven’t left a review and ask them for a review.

And done that as well. Yeah, it’s very powerful.

And you guys stopped doing that about two years ago because of the kind of.

The we just had enough natural organic growth. Yeah, we were already at capacity. Or where we were projecting our growth to be that we didn’t need to do it. Yeah.

For a company that’s maybe not in that position. What what worked for you guys best? Was it the personal emails taking that time or.

That’s the only way I did it. So that’s the only way I can say it worked for me. Yeah. And I think that’s another strong value of our company is that we try to make things not feel automated. And just having having an email from me, the owner, from Maggie, The owner. You know, everyone was worded a little differently based on who it was for. And yeah, that when you have time in your startup phase, when you’re grinding, that’s the best way to do it, I think.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree.

It’s like door knocking, you know, if you got to do it, it works. But 100%.

100%. And it’s funny because when we’re starting out and I hear it all the time because we work with so many clients and we have 100 plus active clients and then we’ve worked with hundreds over over the years, just whether what’s in the agency or just one on one with for myself. And I think sometimes people want to do the sexy stuff, you know, sexy stuff and that’s the boring stuff, you know, And I think the the needle gets moved when we do the boring stuff. Do you agree?

100%. Yeah.

Yeah. So if you’re out there listening, whether it’s live on replay or on the podcast, Apple, Spotify, whatever, do the boring stuff. There’s a guy named Cole Gordon. He owns a company called Closers Audio. It’s a sales training company for coaches, consultants and agencies, and they’re just amazing. He took Closers audio from 0 to 30 million in like less than three years. It’s incredible. So like over 30 million this year he lived in Scottsdale and what he what he said he goes he was Ryan what’s going to get you from where you’re at now to where you want to go? It’s all the boring stuff. Like you can get to 1000000 to 2 million, 3 million with the sexy stuff. But if you want to get to 3 to 10 million or whatever, that’s where the boring stuff comes in, you know? And I think once you can get comfortable doing the boring stuff, looking at the panels, writing those emails to customers, manually spending 2 hours doing it when you want to be with your kid or something real quick, it’s that stuff that’s going to move the needle. And I’m glad you mentioned that because I hear it all the time. Again, everyone wants to do the sexy stuff, but it’s the boring stuff that moves the needle, so. Um, do you guys do anything special on the day of production that creates raving fans? Like, anything special there?

Our project managers kick off every job. And they leave. I don’t know what we call it, a calling card. It’s like a jumbo business card, you know, like a six by nine that has their picture little information, QR code, website, cell phone. And it’s basically like, hey, anything you need any time during this project. Here it is. Put it on the fridge. Whatever. Call me. Text me. Really? Yeah.

It’s a printed.

Card. Yeah.

Oh, wow. That’s very unique. I’ve never heard of that before.

Yeah. Because I think the original reason we did that was to solve the problem of the handoff from the salesperson to the project manager. Homeowners would be comfortable calling the salesperson, but three days into a project, the salesperson doesn’t have any idea what’s going on with that project. Yeah. Project manager does so having that large visual. Think builds trust that this person is there to take care of this project after the salesperson has handed it off.

Yeah, that’s incredible. And when do you hand that card off? Is that from the salesperson hands.

That it’s when the project manager kicks off the job?

Okay, So he shows up to the job boom in person, Hands it to them.

Yeah. Wow.

That’s pretty cool. That’s like, even like, customer retention, too. It’s like branding there as well.

Yeah, most people probably throw it away.

I would tell him, Look, if you throw this away, we’re walking off this job site.

You got.

To keep this thing until we till we’re.

Done. Yeah.

That’s really cool, though. I think in the world of automation and jobs and, you know, service legend, all these online kind of things, automations, I think. I think something in the mail is, like, so powerful, you know, when you can hand something in their hand and it’s really forgotten about in my opinion. I just got something in the mail last night when I got home really late, I hired a consultant for the agency to figure out a couple of things, and there was a box in there and it was like it was like I was like, This is so cool. There was like a yeti there. And it made me smile, you know? And it made me and like, there’s, like, like a lot of customer retention there. So I think there’s a lot of power in that. It’s very, very incredible, actually. So we have a couple more questions here. How do you guys go about building an amazing culture in your in your company? You and Maggie seem like such amazing leaders and like leaders not only in your company but in the industry. How do you guys build an amazing culture in the company there?

I think it starts out with hiring, right? Hiring the right people that. That. I guess you have to have the culture first. But hiring the people that fit your culture is is I would say number one thing. Maggie and I have to also exemplify our culture every day and bring attention to it. We actually have a Slack channel for our company that says core values. And its intention is when somebody on the team has exemplified a core value, you call them out on it and say, Hey, Kenneth, that was awesome teamwork. I appreciate you constantly making the core values part of our lexicon and what we talk about.

Yeah. They’re not just some, like, words on a wall.

Yeah, they literally are words on a wall, too.

I have mine on our, on our wallet at the at the cardinal office too.

And it’s one of those things like I don’t think everybody I know everybody in the company can’t repeat them to me. But we have enough meetings at the office where we point. Hey, thanks for doing this or so-and-so is not doing this. You can use it in a negative way to.

Yeah. Yeah. You can use it as a like, you know, when it’s in genuine, you know when it’s like, you know, I think, I think if you just put those core values together to like kind of like get your people in order, like you’re going to be this, you know, and but I think I think what I’ve noticed with you and Maggie, I spend enough time with you guys. I mean, obviously not a lot, but I can I can I can tell you guys are like leaders and and you’re leading really well. And that’s probably why you’re doing so well. You know, you that’s one factor. But I think. The words of of core value. Like those core values are not just words. They’re like who you guys are. And you guys, you guys live that every day. The team wants to live that everyday, too. You know, I think a lot of people get caught up in creating core values, thinking that that’s for the team, not for.


Can do kind of like, Hey, I’m going to do this, you guys, That’s for you guys, you know, And it’s never going to work that way. No. Yeah. So I have a couple more questions here. We’re getting close to the end. What is the best advice you’ve ever received?

Oh, best advice I’ve ever received. I know who it’s from, but I don’t know what it is. My dad has given me some of the best advice. Through countless periods of my life. A day in general. It’s like things are going to be hard and that’s okay. Mm hmm. If it was easy, everybody’d be doing it, and there’d be no reward.

Like get normalize the hard.

Yeah, right. And it kind of morphed into one of the things we say at our company. It’s not a core value, but it’s just a term we throw around is we can do hard things. Hmm. Love that love. We see that to our kids, too.

I love that. Yeah. That’s really cool. What is the worst advice you’ve ever received? It’s going to be easy.

Yeah. Those are good questions. That’s the worst advice I’ve ever received. Anytime somebody tells you to lie about something. Hmm. Or conceal something. Yeah. A lot of people that said stuff like that. Yeah. No one will ever know, right?

Yeah, there’s a lot of there’s a lot of bad information out there. And that’s why I think what Jason and Nick are doing is so cool because there’s so much bad information, you know, it’s incredible like so and a lot of that is inexperience and they’re lying and they’re just trying to promote themselves or whatever, you know.

So somebody asked me yesterday and one of the men’s groups that I’m in, it’s like, what do you see as an injustice in the world? And I immediately my thoughts went to Facebook groups where people are just out bad information left and right or dogging on people. And that’s an injustice. It’s terrible. Mm hmm.

Yeah, I know. Like, one of the biggest lessons I learned from Tommy, you know, he’s run a probably do 200 million this year in his in his, in his company. And he, he always talks about, look, if I win, you don’t lose. You know, like if I win, you don’t lose. We can all win. And I think, you know, it’s kind of hard to have that abundance mindset when you’re you’re so selfishly thinking. But I think if we can open up our minds and realize that we can all win. And Jason and Nick were talking about this at the last piece about the the market, the market, I forget what it is, but like how much market share.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s crazy when you calculate it. I’m not even doing 1% of the painting in Nashville.

Yeah, but we want to hold our secrets. Like, Oh, I’m not telling you how I’m going to do this thing, you know, thinking that we’re going to lose, you know? So and I think anyone that’s providing value to an industry, those people should be together, you know, because Eric and Tanner and you and I and Brandon and and these guys, if we could learn from each other, like we could serve our clients more, you know, and it’s hard to get to that, that like that mind frame. And I think you have to have that you had to have grace and you got to have that abundance mindset. So I love that. Man. One last question here is what is the greatest insight that you can share with our audience that has helped you find success in your painting business?

It’s okay to take imperfect action. Just take action. That’s a big one, man. And a lot of entrepreneurs get paralyzed by making the wrong decision. And ask yourself, what’s the worst thing that could happen? And the worst thing that could happen is typically not that bad. Yeah. Might lose a night of sleep or something like that.

So true, man. Imperfect action.

Or what’s the there’s a Samuel Beckett quote. It’s like fail often fail forward something else. I screwed that up.

Yeah, no. Yeah, I’ve heard that before. I don’t know what it is, but I’ve heard it before. And imperfect acting is so huge. And obviously, like hearing you guys is a story. And if you guys are still listening here, I know we have a couple of people live and we’ll have more on the replay. But really Matt’s whole story, there’s a lot of imperfect action. I mean, hey, we’re not answering the phone, but maybe we will. Hey, we started out, I was estimated, but I did this like there’s so many imperfect actions that you guys took. And I’m sure you guys will take many, many, many more. So I really, really appreciate that. That’s that’s, that’s the biggest. W If you guys didn’t learn anything else from this podcast episode, this show, take in perfect action, get out there, spend the money on marketing, spend time hiring a players, not see players, take the time, hire slow, build your brand, build your vision mission Core values don’t go cheap on your branding. Don’t spend $100. Do it right and build relationships. There’s so many things you can learn here, but the minimum is taken. Perfect action. Matt Is there any other topics or anything else that you want to share here at all?

I feel like we need to end it there. That’s kind of like a bomb drop.

Yeah, like if I had one of those buttons right here, like, Yeah.

But the.

Booth. Bradley he’s like, I might get one. Sweet man. Well, thank you so much for your time. And I know it’s Veteran’s Day. And again, thank you so much to all the veterans out there for your service, your sacrifice, your family sacrifice. Thank you so much for what you do for our country, our amazing country. And outside of that. Again, thank you so much. God bless you guys. We’ll see you guys next.

You see you all.




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